Home » City Council, Community » Sedona Fourth of July 2015 with Eddie Maddock

Sedona Fourth of July 2015 with Eddie Maddock

SedonaEye.com columnist Eddie Maddock

SedonaEye.com columnist Eddie Maddock

Sedona AZ (July 1, 2015) – So how many are still in Sedona who lived here when voters approved to incorporate?

The few remaining must surely recall that “NO CITY PROPERTY TAX” was a huge stipulation without which incorporation might never have been given the green light. Sales tax was favored because it wasn’t discriminatory against property owners. In other words, everyone “pays to play” as has become a catchy little phrase on this site.

Back then, the story was “for only one more penny on the dollar” we will have our own police department, control development, and a myriad of amazing advantages not available under the jurisdiction of either Coconino or Yavapai County. (The fact a Coconino County Sheriff Sub Station was located on Forest Road for some reason was overlooked.)

In addition to the veiled threat of property condemnation in the event Sedona, as an incorporated city, didn’t come up with a sewer treatment plant, residents were influenced by and objected to the construction of West Sedona’s White House Inn. And with the rumored prospect that a Sizzler’s restaurant might be erected on the land west of the main Post Office, the incorporation movement advanced to approval.

Sedona AZ

Sedona AZ

In retrospect, was the White House Inn (now a neutral color) really so bad, and how dreadful would a Sizzler’s have been taking into consideration the almost lot to lot development that occurred, beginning immediately after the incorporation deal had been signed, sealed, and delivered? And, what now has that one penny on the dollar turned into?

However, those in power remain determined to “get us” property owners one way or another, as if we are somehow exempt from paying the city sales tax over and above what we contribute to the state and respective counties.

Presently proposed in the budget is $75,000 to create and implement garbage and recycling service within city limits. Translated this means an opportunity for the city to collect yet more sales tax and franchise fees from property owners.

sedona marathon 23And that isn’t a form of city property taxes? In the event this comes to pass, be prepared City Residents, to see a potential – and even substantial – increase in your monthly garbage collection fees.

Also in the future plan is $75,269 for a new city planner position to help create Community Focus Areas. This will include, of course, the defunct Cultural Park – at which time the USFS land trade necessary for the erection of the facility, also approved by voters, was accomplished with the stipulation that in perpetuity the property would NEVER be approved for commercial use.

That remains to be seen.

Be prepared for potential consideration of rezoning in all areas. None will be exempt if justification, real or perceived, stands in the way of “progress.” (That term, of course, is subjective, therefore, the meaning depends on one’s interpretation.)

imagine sedona community planAnother comprehensive transportation study at the tune of $250,000 is on the table. A lot of do-re-mi being spent to be told there are too many cars on the two State Highways which serve to facilitate entrance and exit corridors for our City.


So let the creative minds spend probably millions more to attempt methods by which to make “connector” roads through our subdivisions. Been there, done that, and guess what? Property owners wanted no part of that, the same as they didn’t care to become an incorporated city if it meant “CITY PROPERTY TAXES.”

And remember back, not too many years ago, when Arizona Department of Transportation was willing to install medians in West Sedona?

Yes, indeed.

And what happened?

city of sedona building engineering logoWell, many of the businesses on both sides of the highway screamed like smashed cats because that would disable left turn access into their properties. They likewise balked at the idea for frontage-like roads to be provided by cooperation with adjoining business owners. The only place that occurred was the two properties facilitating the Harkins Theaters and Plaza West.

There is misrepresentation about just who it is paying taxes.

While the Lodging Council, an affinity group of the Chamber of Commerce, agreed to a half percent bed tax increase a couple of years ago, it isn’t the lodging establishments that are paying those taxes to the cities. It is the customers, patrons, visitors who book reservations, rent rooms for a specified duration, and, in turn, agree to pay the assessed taxes for the service.

Therefore, all the credit being given to the Lodging Council for adding to the tax base isn’t coming from them. It is with their consent they collect that money on behalf of the city and, at the same time, increase their own financial worth depending on amount of seasonal or annual activity based on the number of rooms they rent. They are in business to make money for their own profit. They do not work for the City of Sedona. The same is true of all other businesses.

Those businesses in Sedona collecting city, county, and state taxes likewise do so because they are assigned that responsibility as a condition of doing business in Sedona. They are also required to pay for City of Sedona Business Licenses. They are not, out of the generosity of their hearts, simply keeping records, filling out forms and remitting money as an act of kindness and charity to financially support the cost of operating a municipality.

And, again, just what is the source of the money collected by all Sedona businesses, including lodging facilities? It is people, customers, who pay money for the goods and services they receive.

To continuously praise, honor, and glorify the presumed sanctity of the Sedona Chamber of Commerce (formerly Sedona/Oak Creek Canyon Chamber of Commerce) as well as their affinity Lodging Council is dishonoring the source of the money they collect in order to rebate the percentage rate levied by the City of Sedona. To do that is a slap in the face to the people – all people – residents and tourists alike. Biting the hand that is feeding them is a mild comparison, while giving credit where it isn’t warranted only adds insult to injury.

The purpose of this city has become distorted from the original intent which was to set aside a designated area defined by City Limits. Then within that area establish a method of sustaining it by promoting pertinent businesses, with primary consideration for residents and taxpayers within those boundaries – and most of all providing services to that segment. No more. This city crosses the line by discriminating against qualifying businesses while at the same time promoting competition outside the legitimate jurisdiction.

fourth of july 4Certainly a healthy spirit of regional unity and cooperation is desirable and should be encouraged, but not at the expense of those deserving recognition, namely the residents and businesses of the City of Sedona residing within Sedona City Limits.

Why is that so difficult for city councils, staff, and management to understand? Reflecting back wasn’t it made quite clear by the expert, Larry Harmer, when he addressed the city council at a meeting in January of this year?

Admittedly most of this is old news, but without apologizing, as the Fourth of July approaches, the time to celebrate Independence Day and justice for all, is it unfair to hang it on the line again? Fairness is not the existing policy in Sedona today when City Limit businesses are coerced to become members of a special interest club – if they expect recognition in the City financed but “official” Chamber of Commerce Visitor Center.

fourth of july 4 harley mcguireIf businesses refuse to submit to intimidation they receive no recognition since the City refuses to dignify and earmark an “official” City of Sedona Visitor Center in support of legitimate licensed operations.

Residents continue to be chided and subjected to criticism for not paying our fair share as millions are being spent for non-essential purposes – most of which also favor pandering to special interest groups.

In Sedona the Fourth of July has lost essence of the intent. Thank you, City Leaders, for choosing a path that vastly deviates from the purpose for which Sedona became an “Incorporated City.”

Enjoy your power. Nothing lasts forever.

Read www.SedonaEye.com for daily news and interactive views!

Read www.SedonaEye.com for daily news and interactive views!


  1. Ezra says:

    What is the meaning of special interests if not to cater to special interests? What’s the problem with the rest of you not understanding this?

  2. Bingo says:

    Ezra your few words are brilliant. Oh should we be so lucky to have others display just a shred of your intelligence. The only thing you left out is the high price tag attached to these special interests. And just who is it that foots the bill? Not necessarily the special interests catering to the special interests. It’s the taxpayers who get socked and sometimes even denied the means to cater to their own “special interests.”

  3. Charlie says:

    Sure, Ezra, special interests are great as long as they create events and offer participation as a means to raise funds on their own. Only since Sedona incorporated have the lines at City Hall become longer and longer every year. Now it’s cooperative groups from all over the Verde Valley asking for handouts, which they generally receive. These elected people very quickly lose value of the buck. Ten, fifteen, twenty grand is such a small amount. And those exact words are used time and time again. This isn’t a case of getting what we pay for at all. It boils down to “them” getting what they want and to heck with the rest of us. And now they will be enforcing who will pick up our garbage? Maybe two good starting places would be at City Hall and the regional Chamber of Commerce.

  4. Or “Wouldn’t it be Loverly?” if both the City Hall and Chamber Visitors Center miraculously disappeared into giant sink holes. (with the ongoing and costly drainage problems at moldy city hall maybe it’s possible?)

  5. Warren says:

    “And now they will be enforcing who will pick up our garbage? Maybe two good starting places would be at City Hall and the regional Chamber of Commerce.”

    Good one, Charlie, good one!

  6. steve segner says:

    More good news,
    The City sales tax and bed tax numbers are currently exceeding budget by nearly $2 million with one more month to go in the fiscal year.
    · Sales Tax Revenues exceed budget by 14% Year-To-Date (YTD)

    · Sales Tax Revenues are 11% higher than prior YTD actual collections

    · Sales Tax Revenue exceeds budget by $1,492,014 YTD

    · Bed Tax Revenues exceed budget by 22% YTD

    · Bed Tax Revenues are 24% higher than prior YTD actual collections

    · Bed Tax Revenues exceed budget by $421,987 YTD

    Plus occupancy is up 4% and average daily rates are up 9%. No smoke and mirrors here…just the plain old facts.

  7. Confused says:

    Are Steve segner, steve Segner, steve segner and Steve Segner all different people?

  8. SteveSegner says:

    No real comment ha? At least I use a real name, Confused it must be hard.

  9. Confused says:

    OMG @ SteveSegner, which one is Your real name? If You can’t even spell Your own name correctly how can You expect us to believe any of Your figures?

  10. Taxpayers says:

    Don’t believe anyone claiming it is ok to use taxpayers money to market private special interest groups.

    They are stealing YOUR money people to better their business.

  11. SteveSegner says:

    This is all you have ?
    steve Segner or Steve Segner
    Got the numbers got from city , I just asked!
    No comment on how well city is doing?

  12. Maria says:

    Steve Segner what’s your point? So the economy is on an upswing which is about time. It was rough going for a while. It looks like gas prices might be dropping. Thanks for taking time to inform us the city is doing well financially which means maybe they will have enough money to take care of the drainage problems and other things like neglected roads, etc. Great news all right! Thanks.

  13. Steve segner says:

    Exactly good news

  14. Walt says:

    Can you pay you own bills now @steve segner?
    The taxpayers are tired of paying your marketing bills.

  15. steve Segner says:

    The bed tax pay 100% of marketing, YOU PAY NOTHING.
    You just want the marketing money.
    Sorry the city council makes that decision.

  16. sharlett says:

    I believe the point @Walt is asking you to understand is a rather simple one @steve Segner.

    Let me translate: All Revenues, including Bed Taxes, are to be used to maintain and enhance the City of Sedona – other wise recognized as the citizens who live within our city limits. @Walt wisely suggests that the Bed Tax revenues to the City should be used to pay for Health, Safety and Welfare issues rather than advertising your business and all other lodging properties both in and outside the city limits.

    It seems the city does not even get enough from the increased bed tax to pay for the impacts the higher occupancy places on our infrastructure. Seems lop sided.

    What we citizens lose is the benefit of utilizing all that delicious marketing money to get the normal improvements accomplished and get a jump up on paying off our debts on Bonds – rather than watching you people take more profits from your business because you successfully got the city to pay a huge portion of Your advertising.

    This is an issue that should have gone to a public vote just as any land purchases should.

  17. Donna Varney says:

    WE the PEOPLE pay the property that is inflated due to all your tourists. WE do pay to play in Sedona @steve Segner. You are not paying to play. Impact fees would be appropriate for everyone in the tourist industry.

  18. TonyT says:

    We not only pay in high taxes.

    We pay in decreased quality of life, more noise, bumper to bumper traffic, more pollution. It appears the City of Sedona is run for the tourist businesses, not for the citizens.

    It is way past time for a change.

  19. Donna Varney says:

    Well said @Sharlett.

    Agreed @Tony T Time to make a change.

    Strength is in numbers. United together. Every person matters.

  20. Steve Segner says:

    Donna says:
    WE the PEOPLE pay the property that is inflated due to all your tourists
    Tony says:We not only pay in high taxes.
    Tony, you pay no city tax, just sales tax and it went down!
    Please out tourists numbers are just now getting back to 2017/2008 levels. \
    And Scarlett one more time the state of Arizona tells the city areas the bed tax can be used.

    Look, the chamber just advertises Sedona the most beautiful place in America, in Phoenix and L.A. in the slow months (now)when we need the business.

    Anyone can join the chamber; El portal is a past member of the Phoenix chamber.
    You just do not want to pay up, the city only pays a small portion of the visitor center the chamber owns the building and runs it,
    We all pay a small fee to be a member, and we pay more if we want more services.
    Donna, one more time you pay nothing, and you get all the benefits.
    This all about two large hotels out of town the can bake a cake ?


  21. Just Sayin' says:

    @Donna Varney

    Couldn’t agree with you more there is Strength is in numbers. United together. Every person matters.

    The only problem is that you’re number haven’t changed all that much in the past few years. Sure you have TonyT and Sharlett and they are folks that are in the know.

    Then you have a few people who post under different names but how much can those count, not all that much.

    We all know that you’re put off because the welcome center won’t post your business cards because you don’t want to be a member. Oh well.

    Please go back to baking the best baked goods in the city and call it a day.

  22. Donna Varney says:

    Steve you spin everything. The people pay higher taxes because of tourists. FACT. I was a chamber member for close to twenty years. Lets see between my biz and the non-profit we paid thousands without any return on the investment. the chamber. Maybe you should do the math. Bad job. Greedy. If you love them so much then you should pay them more.

    They are a non-profit collecting money for profit. It is NOT the government’s job to pay for your advertising. I had a conversation with a high level National Journalist. The small town shenanigans like the regional chamber here are commonplace nationwide. Stacking the deck by getting their supporters to control City Councils. It is based on the everyday person not understanding or wanting to be bothered. Smoke, mirrors, confusion, and making you feel unwelcome.


    PS I am soooo busy I don’t service out of town hotels. In fact I decline work weekly and recommend others for cakes. EVERYONE This is about Greedy people using the system take the taxpayers dollar for their personal gain. Steve wants to intimidate you.

  23. steve Segner says:

    Donna Varney
    Said, “The people pay higher taxes because of tourists. FACT”

    Donna, please show us how the tax we now pay is higher, sales tax dropped in 2013

    Fact, the City pays for a contract to advertise for Sedona twice a year
    Fact, any business can join the chamber or not
    Fact, there is a waiting list to advertise on the chambers web site
    Fact, no spin, you just make wild out of the box and almost libelous statements.
    Fact, yes, it is the governments job to advertise, thousands and thousands of cities have ad budgets, some even build ballparks.
    Fact, if you got nothing back from your chamber membership, great and good for you, no one is forcing you to be a member,
    Fact, if chamber membership did not work for you in the past, then there is no reason to be on the chambers web site or have a rack card at the visitor center.

    Donna, You say. I had a conversation with a high level National Journalist”.
    Please show us the facts, show us the article that the journalist is writing.

    Donna, said, stacking the deck by getting their supporters to control City Councils. Donna, you do a great injustice to the chamber of commerce and most of all to the hard working city council, people that give thousands of hours of free time to help manage Sedona.
    Donna, I’m glad you can turn away business, but most business in Sedona need all the help they can get and they join the chamber to get it.
    Thank god we have a city council that understands 8000 people make their living from tourists in Sedona and 65% of the cost of running Sedona come from tourists.
    . Facts please, you just say the same thing over and over and over

    P.S Just Sayin’ nailed it.

  24. Donna Varney says:

    Steve said ” 65% of the cost of running Sedona come from tourists.”

    Finally in your own word you got it right. You can get rid of of the tourists, ware and tear as SAVE 65% of the city operating cost. The city can reduce it staff as they won’t have so much work generated by the tourists. BINGO on the property taxes will also go down. We can go back to volunteers.

    LOVE it. :) BRILLIANT! :)

    Sleep tight.

  25. @ Just Sayin’ says “Then you have a few people who post under different names but how much can those count, not all that much.”

    I think You would be very surprised at the numbers of us using aliases or not commenting at all who are fed up and tired of the misbehavior by the City Council and the Chamber of Commerce. I think You would be very surprised at who we know, what we know, and what social circles we run in. The next time You’re speaking freely in what You believe to be a safe environment, look around.

    I commend Donna Varney, Eddie Maddock and others like them that shine a light in this town so others like us can see.

    As for our new City Manager Justin Clifton, of whom I’m very impressed with His intelligence and demeanor, I only hope that He has the honesty and insight to also help us. Time will tell.

  26. steve Segner says:

    Donna, Donna you pay no property tax to the city.
    Donna you said you turn away business, “You can get rid of the tourists,”
    That works for you, what about the 8000 jobs, what about the Americans that have a right to come to Sedona, (Sedona for Donna), close the door, I ask one more time to all of the readers who cane first the home owners or the tourists?
    The tourists will not stop coming, we need to fix up town parking- put in a buss system (free) and we need to understand visitors are our friends,

  27. Donna Varney says:

    Steve,Steve,Stevie……Your words not mine Steve said ” 65% of the cost of running Sedona come from tourists.”

    We ALL pay property tax and the City gets their fair share. The Fire Districts and School districts are not part of the city. The counties pay according to the services the city handles. Health services also come from the county. It not the same in other areas where the city has their own schools, fire department, Library. Oh don’t forget the state gives the city money from our taxes they collect. Car licenses also. We pay you play. The counties were first.

    Thank you so much for proving my point. The chamber is a private membership group not an exclusive club for the city.They are not marketing the city but their members. Look at Flagstaff Steve. The city doesn’t fund the chamber one penny in Flag. It is NOT the government’s job to pay for your advertising. A city our size falls into a different category. They DON”T have to do anything. Small town shenanigans. Smoke, mirrors, confusion.

    Impact fees are a great way to increase income for the city. Since it cost us taxpayers more to provide services to those in tourist industry. That is a perfect fit. We have all those employees coming into the city, wow 8,000 of them according to your number almost as many as the residents. Good to know your employees cost us money, impact fees.

    PS. I really love your words ” 65% of the cost of running Sedona come from tourists.” But I actually think your tourist game is costing us more, especially since the Taxpayers are paying you 1.5. It going to be really fun and interesting to do a spread sheet on the “real” cost of doing business with your private-public partnership. The ROI of course could be done quite easy if your members would report their numbers directly to City Hall. But that would disclose the facts in a clear and transparent way. Just Sayin’ Are you following FOIA, since your funded with public money?

    Gotta run got buns in the oven and customers are lining up.

    PSS another good read http://www.velvetrevolution.us/stop_chamber/images/irs_complaint_9_10_10.pdf

  28. steve segner says:

    All the chamber bashing is coming from a couple of Sedona business that are not chamber members (by choice) they want to put advertising material at the
    Visitor center with out paying.
    The reasoning is the city pays a part of the operation of the center.
    They have been told no, pay to play.
    Donna, re the 65% tax number that come from city staff.

  29. @steve suckner Remember this?
    Attached Message
    From: Steve Segner
    To: Al Comello
    Subject: lets meet please do not pass around
    Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 10:39:26 -0700
    We need to do something that puts Sand on the map, the hill top people are Hamilton’s they hang together butt they are few…. we need the flatlanders….

    I see cliff as a life long autocrat… we need to tell that story “Sandy gets her hands dirty…. Cliff talks and talks down.

    Can you get me his background? I am thinking about a large rental truck parked around town with sides with Sands posters… remember all Sedona residents go to two locations each week, Bash’s and Safeway,

    Lets be smart, lets run a gorilla marketing campaign

    I think Cliff will try to paint the chamber in a bad light so he can come in and fix things ,lets keep the chamber out of this, and talk about and Cliff and his imperil management stile.
    I think using the “T” party as a comment would be good.


    Look at Sand http://www.sedonaaz.gov/Sedonacms/index.aspx?page=866&parent=23282 funding

    Sandy Moriarty –
    Campaign chairman -Al Comello -non resident, chamber, adult center paid job by City
    Ed Conway-Chamber-Hotel (non resident)
    Lonnie Lillie-Hotel, Director Chamber, Mainstreet
    Tom Gilomen- Chamber Multiple Business owner,
    Steve Segner- Chamber-Hotel
    Linda Goldenstein –Chamber Vice Chairman
    Joel Gilgoff- Chamber Chairman
    Rob Holeman- Chamber- Hotel
    Glenn Scarpelli –Chamber
    Jerry Gilden – Chamber
    Holly Epright- Chamber Director of city-funded mainstreet paid executive Director
    David Harkey Chamber’s PAID advertising agency company located in Phoenix*****

    We remember! Dirty dirty dirty. your ads

  30. J. J. says:

    That’s a broad brush stroke, Steve, to say ALL the “bashing” is done by Sedona business who aren’t (by choice) chamber members. I’m retired but I have been a member in the past. It was all the disappointment I held that kept me from joining again those last few years before retirement.

    The citizens was things to be FAIR. Yes, I know Steve, that you think FAIR is where you ride the Tilt-a-Whirl and eat cotton candy, but that not the type of FAIR we’re discussing here.

    We’re pointing the light into the darkness. The cockroaches are scurrying.


  31. J. J. says:

    PS to Steve-
    Your words: the city pays a part of the operation of the center
    Yes, they pay a very LARGE part of the operation for the center. Citizens pay taxes, therefore they ARE paying to play. ANY citizen paying taxes has the right to put their brochures in the visitor’s center.

  32. steve Segner says:

    to: Sedona Flatlanders or should i say the owner of the Sedona eye
    Best marketing advice I have ever given.
    I stand by every comment in the stolen e-mail
    When you do not have a lot of funds gorilla marketing is the way to go look it up.
    When people run for office they ask for help we all helped ,did you?
    No, you just sit back and bitch at the out come.
    Seem when I ask to many questions or answer wrong remarks with facts
    The personal attacked come out.
    Please let me know if you have anymore questions I can answer. And if my answers are wrong pleas show me the facts.


  33. Jess Lookin says:

    @steve Segner,

    The lie you keep repeating ‘there is no city tax”, has been shown to be a lie, with proof, so many times. Yet you keep repeating it, again and again.

    Just because you repeat a lie over and over does not make it true.

  34. Get Real says:

    Get real, Steve Segner. Why go after Sedona Eye? There was a five-part series in another on-line publication that clearly repeated much of what has appeared here over the past couple of years but had even greater details about how the “chamber” visitor center is operated to serve only their members, which would be OK if Sedona city taxes didn’t finance at least 70% of the operation.

    The deal with the “agreement” for the tax increase based on the multi-million dollar ad contract was done before it even went to city council. There’s an article in a printed Sedona publication that proves it! Little wonder there were no competitive bids. How could someone compete with a consummated agreement?

    Everyone involved in these pre-arranged deals is sleazy and should be ashamed. The only way for redemption would be to immediately activate the 30-day termination clause and end the agreement.

    And you even admitted someplace along the line that the chamber contract only advertised for destination tourists during Sedona “down times” amounting to what, a couple of times a year? Pretty high priced spending – $1.5 million divided by 2 = $750g’s per ad season. And what is the return on that investment? A question that this city council and management should demand an answer. Also along with that demand should be an outside audit without the opportunity to cook the books or make an outlandish performance before the city council that if nominated might win an Academy Award. (You are really missing your calling in little Sedona.)

    A calculated guess would be a true and legitimate audit would reveal that most of the “gifted” money to the chamber has been co-mingled with other funds (chamber memberships, or whatever) and pays for salaries, utilities, a mortgage on the chamber building if one exists because of the remodeling (at one time it was owned free and clear, paid for legitimately by member dues). But especially how much public money has been spent to increase chamber membership and promote and expand their own web site – maybe even contributing to exotic vacations – all by having chiseled a negotiation prior to the inconvenience of having it voted on at a public meeting.

    Listen up, folks. This is the true Sedona. Maybe the most beautiful place in the world but where the filthiest, dirtiest, slimiest negotiations transpire behind the scene. And people thought this type of government only occurred at top level? Ha!

    You want to go after someone for exposing you? The way you keep yammering you do a pretty good job yourself. Luckily you only have two feet to put in your mouth but your tentacles for grabbing onto city taxes are too numerous to keep track of.

    Count your money and shut up. The “legitimate?” crooks on city council support you so why waste time on the little “flatlanders” most of whom are so frustrated they have no place else to go to vent their concerns.

  35. sharlett says:

    @steve Segner

    You are so sadly funny! Someone stole your email? Oh Please – no one stole it – you just got caught with your pants down thinking you are the mega master mind political game player when in fact it is quite the opposite.

    Thanks to @Sedona Flatlanders we now have an even more clear picture of your lack of integrity Why did you ask to not have the email passed around? Hum. Seems someone on your list took umbrage to your tactics and garbage.

    Now you become even more absurd when you accuse “the Sedona Flatlanders or should i say the owner of the Sedona eye” of something they did wrong? Ya may just want to realize that the Flatlanders and Sedona Eye owner certainly did not write your words!

    Then, steve, you ramble on to say that email contained the “Best marketing advice I have ever given.” So now you are also a marketing God? Think Not.

    Do we have questions for you? Oh you bet: Why do you abuse state laws by listing your residence as your business which allows you to vote in city elections – when you actually live in the Canyon?

    @Get Real – You said it best! Your comments are a good re-read for all – including mr. screw the laws.

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